|
Post by Admin on Sept 15, 2017 0:48:35 GMT
Discuss any news, events, or stories about the Tulsa diocese, and it's parishes and other organizations.
Two aspects:
1. To highlight the Good, True, and Beautiful in our Local Church--in otherwords to take a positive look at what remains of traditional Catholicism, especially pertaining to the Liturgy, Spirituality, and Disciplinary Customs of the Church.
2. To discuss the Bad, False, and Ugly that has invaded our Local Church. In other words, the New religion that falsely uses the Vatican II changes and the New Mass as it's foundation.
A few rules about criticisms:
a) do not spread private, negative information about people (ie gossiping will not be tolerated).
b) be respectful in the way you talk about the bishop and priests of the diocese (bashing or maligning clerics will not be tolerated). The best rule of thumb is to limit criticism to words, actions, and objective things distinct from individuals. This is especially true if you are sedevacantist or view the hierarchy as illegitimate. If in doubt, as a moderator. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Sept 15, 2017 2:32:46 GMT
Any news from the Tulsa Diocese?
|
|
|
Post by TulsaPapist on Sept 15, 2017 18:12:52 GMT
I heard that Sts. Peter and Paul have cut down confessions to once a month.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Sept 15, 2017 19:31:21 GMT
I heard that Sts. Peter and Paul have cut down confessions to once a month. Dang. I loved how Fr Tim had confessions, what, every Wednesday. Hope he might make it back to Tulsa. Hope the traditional Catholic community of St P&P keeps moving forward. Btw welcome to the forum Tulsapapist! Spread the word!
|
|
|
Post by laramiehirsch on Sept 16, 2017 14:05:36 GMT
I heard that Sts. Peter and Paul have cut down confessions to once a month. Yes, confessions have been reduced. Daily Latin Mass has ceased. English and Spanish Novus Ordo Mass is now with the priest facing the people, and Fr. Knipe tells the laity to stand when receiving the Eucharist. Various parishioners in the Hispanic community are wondering if Fr. Knipe will do away with the perpetual Adoration in the St. Toribio Romo chapel. Many families have left for the FSSP across the Arkansas River. When Fr. Knipe did participate in the Latin Mass, he'd wear not-so-traditional vestments that seemed to insult the moment. More to come, I'm sure. But, then again, perhaps I'm wrong and Fr. Knipe is unaware of how he comes off.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Sept 16, 2017 17:05:44 GMT
I heard that Sts. Peter and Paul have cut down confessions to once a month. Yes, confessions have been reduced. Daily Latin Mass has ceased. English and Spanish Novus Ordo Mass is now with the priest facing the people, and Fr. Knipe tells the laity to stand when receiving the Eucharist. Various parishioners in the Hispanic community are wondering if Fr. Knipe will do away with the perpetual Adoration in the St. Toribio Romo chapel. Many families have left for the FSSP across the Arkansas River. When Fr. Knipe did participate in the Latin Mass, he'd wear not-so-traditional vestments that seemed to insult the moment. More to come, I'm sure. But, then again, perhaps I'm wrong and Fr. Knipe is unaware of how he comes off. Welcome to the Forum Hirsch! I know St P&P has been a rather traditional parish for many years with its devotional life. And Mother Miriam and her sisters have made it their home, it seems in part because it has the Latin Mass. But now there is no daily Latin Mass. Are they forced to drive across the river to the FSSP I a wonder? Was there a substantial group for the daily Latin Masses? If so, I would think approaching the pastor, they would have a right under Summorum Pontificum to that. Hopefully the trads can bridge the gap, who knows, maybe Fr. would become interested in Tradition. I know for Fr. D it was a gradual process over years before he learned the TLM. Also, I think deep down some of the Hispanics would go to the TLM. But its almost all white. Maybe reach out to the thinkers and leaders in the Hispanic part of the parish and discuss it. How to bring the Hispanics to the TLM. Spanish hymns, Spanish vestments. Look at what Mass was like at a Hispanic parish before Vatican II. Now its such a delicate situation because of race. But once the #s grow, more would come. If you could sometime, let people know about the forum!
|
|
|
Post by PerEvangelicaDicta on Sept 21, 2017 16:25:56 GMT
Perhaps you are looking at this the wrong way. If confession is now only available once a month, then the pastor must have cultured a very holy parish Seriously though, how sad the pastor is not friendly to tradition. I find it interesting that he's sacrificing revenue also, in the loss of parishioners to the FSSP. You have some good ideas there, Admin.
|
|
|
Post by TulsaPapist on Sept 25, 2017 14:44:04 GMT
It is not that much revenue. While some have moved not all have. Many have just gone Novus Ordo. There is some bad blood, mainly on the Sts. P&P side that will prevent them from attending at the FSSP parish. The FSSP parish, which has talked about this, would welcome them, but there are some that would rather apostatize than go to the FSSP parish. They will go to places like the Cathedral before going to MPB. They don't want parish life, but just the smells and bells. That is why they are at Sts. P&P to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by Sequoyah on Sept 27, 2017 21:07:06 GMT
It is not that much revenue. While some have moved not all have. Many have just gone Novus Ordo. There is some bad blood, mainly on the Sts. P&P side that will prevent them from attending at the FSSP parish. The FSSP parish, which has talked about this, would welcome them, but there are some that would rather apostatize than go to the FSSP parish. They will go to places like the Cathedral before going to MPB. They don't want parish life, but just the smells and bells. That is why they are at Sts. P&P to begin with. SSPX pulled out of Tulsa. Hurricanes hit the US. My sister may stop helping my cantankerous 85 y.o. aunt (guess who ends up with the responsibility?). Trads are divided into their camp's like a cornucopia of Boy scout troops at the annual Jamborie. For me anyway, I'm just going to draw common sense conclusions about everything. The Society left Tulsa because of the laity there (not logistical issues with priest #s and Mass circuit challenges). The 40 members who've gone there for decades will either go FSSP or home alone. My aunt will likely end up in assisted living within the next 6 months, despite my best efforts. Traddom will fractionate into more and more subcategories and cliques. The St Peter and Paul people still harboring bad feelings (after several years), will loose the Latin Mass within the next 1-2 years, and go to the cathedral or whatever. And given enough time, I pray not, MPB will get the shaft, God knows how. To me, in the end, the end game is we trads must stick together, united to our traditional Catholic Faith, and always, always, the pope, bishops, and priests. We must call them out when their words or actions contradict the Faith, yet also we must pray and do penance for them, and support them. Go Sooners!
|
|
|
Post by FromTheFrontLine on Sept 30, 2017 7:26:16 GMT
I heard that Sts. Peter and Paul have cut down confessions to once a month. Confessions are heard during the EF Mass once per month. Confessions are also being heard before the 9:00 am, 12:30 pm, and 6:00 pm Masses on Sundays and by request/appointment. To put this in perspective: confessions are now being heard during the EF Mass once per month more than they were before Fr. Davison left (due to a lack of English speaking priests to hear them).
|
|
|
Post by FromTheFrontLine on Sept 30, 2017 7:42:27 GMT
I heard that Sts. Peter and Paul have cut down confessions to once a month. Yes, confessions have been reduced. Daily Latin Mass has ceased. English and Spanish Novus Ordo Mass is now with the priest facing the people, and Fr. Knipe tells the laity to stand when receiving the Eucharist. Various parishioners in the Hispanic community are wondering if Fr. Knipe will do away with the perpetual Adoration in the St. Toribio Romo chapel. Many families have left for the FSSP across the Arkansas River. When Fr. Knipe did participate in the Latin Mass, he'd wear not-so-traditional vestments that seemed to insult the moment. More to come, I'm sure. But, then again, perhaps I'm wrong and Fr. Knipe is unaware of how he comes off. There are still daily EF Masses on First Friday, First Saturday, and some special feasts. We will have an EF Mass followed by a procession on Friday October 13 at 5:30 pm for the anniversary of the last apparition at Fatima. The regular daily Masses were canceled because the attendance was very low: often only Mother Miriam and her postulants and perhaps one or two other people. A big part of the problem is that there simply aren't enough priests to cover all the Masses (N.B. priests are generally limited to celebrating one Mass on weekdays). The perpetual adoration has been at risk for some time before Fr. Davison left due to lack of adorers to cover certain hours. While several families have left SSPP for MPBP, I don't think the number who have left could be would be considered 'many' by most standards. Of note: several families who primarily/exclusively attended the OF Masses at SSPP have either started attending the EF Masses more frequently or have expressed an interest in doing so.
|
|
|
Post by FromTheFrontLine on Sept 30, 2017 8:29:18 GMT
It is not that much revenue. While some have moved not all have. Many have just gone Novus Ordo. There is some bad blood, mainly on the Sts. P&P side that will prevent them from attending at the FSSP parish. The FSSP parish, which has talked about this, would welcome them, but there are some that would rather apostatize than go to the FSSP parish. They will go to places like the Cathedral before going to MPB. They don't want parish life, but just the smells and bells. That is why they are at Sts. P&P to begin with. While there is some truth in the quoted statement, it is far from an accurate description of the relationship between the members of MPBP and those who left the FSSP parish to attend the EF at SSPP. > there are some that would rather apostatize than go to the FSSP parish Apostatizing how? As for parish life: Fr. Davison went to great lengths to afford the EF attendees as much of a parish life as the other parishioners. Yes, there were some limitations (on all parties) because of the three different communities (English, Spanish, and Latin) sharing the same resources; however, some of the limitations were also due to the geographic dispersity of the EF community, which was also a factor when the FSSP was still at St. Augustine. While Fr. Knipe has made some changes that negatively affect the EF community, in all fairness it should be noted that some of those changes (reduction of the daily Mass schedule and confessions heard during the EF Sunday Masses) started before Fr. Davison announced his departure and are due to limited clerical resources, not arbitrary of hostile decisions by either pastor. While Fr. Knipe may not be personally inclined to the traditional liturgy, has been very accommodating, even if not to the extent Fr. Davison was, in regard to providing for EF Masses on special feasts. The priest who offers the EF Mass, Fr. Elmer Rodriguez, who came to the US from Central America just several months ago, has made an extraordinary effort to learn both the traditional liturgy as well as the English language, and is very dedicated to supporting the EF at SSPP. We also have a permanent deacon, Erick Bell, who is very familiar with the EF, having served as a straw subdeacon for solemn Masses while completing his formation for the diaconate. Perhaps some or all of the above will change in the future. Perhaps not. I think we stand the best chance if we avoid personal criticism and pray for all involved and that the Lord's will be done (whether it is to our liking or not).
|
|
|
Post by PerEvangelicaDicta on Oct 1, 2017 4:42:26 GMT
It is not that much revenue. While some have moved not all have. Many have just gone Novus Ordo. There is some bad blood, mainly on the Sts. P&P side that will prevent them from attending at the FSSP parish. The FSSP parish, which has talked about this, would welcome them, but there are some that would rather apostatize than go to the FSSP parish. They will go to places like the Cathedral before going to MPB. They don't want parish life, but just the smells and bells. That is why they are at Sts. P&P to begin with. While there is some truth in the quoted statement, it is far from an accurate description of the relationship between the members of MPBP and those who left the FSSP parish to attend the EF at SSPP. > there are some that would rather apostatize than go to the FSSP parish Apostatizing how? As for parish life: Fr. Davison went to great lengths to afford the EF attendees as much of a parish life as the other parishioners. Yes, there were some limitations (on all parties) because of the three different communities (English, Spanish, and Latin) sharing the same resources; however, some of the limitations were also due to the geographic dispersity of the EF community, which was also a factor when the FSSP was still at St. Augustine. While Fr. Knipe has made some changes that negatively affect the EF community, in all fairness it should be noted that some of those changes (reduction of the daily Mass schedule and confessions heard during the EF Sunday Masses) started before Fr. Davison announced his departure and are due to limited clerical resources, not arbitrary of hostile decisions by either pastor. While Fr. Knipe may not be personally inclined to the traditional liturgy, has been very accommodating, even if not to the extent Fr. Davison was, in regard to providing for EF Masses on special feasts. The priest who offers the EF Mass, Fr. Elmer Rodriguez, who came to the US from Central America just several months ago, has made an extraordinary effort to learn both the traditional liturgy as well as the English language, and is very dedicated to supporting the EF at SSPP. We also have a permanent deacon, Erick Bell, who is very familiar with the EF, having served as a straw subdeacon for solemn Masses while completing his formation for the diaconate. Perhaps some or all of the above will change in the future. Perhaps not. I think we stand the best chance if we avoid personal criticism and pray for all involved and that the Lord's will be done (whether it is to our liking or not). Your effort to be objective and charitable does not go unnoticed. Is it me, or are more and more trads expressing this sentiment? tired of the infighting and backbiting? I'm picking this up on various forums. Mind you, some of the issues are hills worth dying upon; i.e., SV debate.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 1, 2017 18:29:23 GMT
It is not that much revenue. While some have moved not all have. Many have just gone Novus Ordo. There is some bad blood, mainly on the Sts. P&P side that will prevent them from attending at the FSSP parish. The FSSP parish, which has talked about this, would welcome them, but there are some that would rather apostatize than go to the FSSP parish. They will go to places like the Cathedral before going to MPB. They don't want parish life, but just the smells and bells. That is why they are at Sts. P&P to begin with. While there is some truth in the quoted statement, it is far from an accurate description of the relationship between the members of MPBP and those who left the FSSP parish to attend the EF at SSPP. > there are some that would rather apostatize than go to the FSSP parish Apostatizing how? As for parish life: Fr. Davison went to great lengths to afford the EF attendees as much of a parish life as the other parishioners. Yes, there were some limitations (on all parties) because of the three different communities (English, Spanish, and Latin) sharing the same resources; however, some of the limitations were also due to the geographic dispersity of the EF community, which was also a factor when the FSSP was still at St. Augustine. While Fr. Knipe has made some changes that negatively affect the EF community, in all fairness it should be noted that some of those changes (reduction of the daily Mass schedule and confessions heard during the EF Sunday Masses) started before Fr. Davison announced his departure and are due to limited clerical resources, not arbitrary of hostile decisions by either pastor. While Fr. Knipe may not be personally inclined to the traditional liturgy, has been very accommodating, even if not to the extent Fr. Davison was, in regard to providing for EF Masses on special feasts. The priest who offers the EF Mass, Fr. Elmer Rodriguez, who came to the US from Central America just several months ago, has made an extraordinary effort to learn both the traditional liturgy as well as the English language, and is very dedicated to supporting the EF at SSPP. We also have a permanent deacon, Erick Bell, who is very familiar with the EF, having served as a straw subdeacon for solemn Masses while completing his formation for the diaconate. Perhaps some or all of the above will change in the future. Perhaps not. I think we stand the best chance if we avoid personal criticism and pray for all involved and that the Lord's will be done (whether it is to our liking or not). Welcome to the Forum, Fromthefrontline. Fair points and good info about your parish. Few thoughts Id be curious to get your feedback on. - If the pastor isn't personally invested in the TLM, and the new priest could be transfered who knows when, I would be concerned the TLM/community may not last long I hope not, and support the TLM in each parish, but with the diocesan leadership under the new bishop the TLM at SSPP seems at real risk. - If Fr Elmer has to leave, as Fr. Davidson had to, and Fr K isn't able or willing to maintain regular TLMs, is there a diocesan priest/parish that would take up the batton? - If so, one strategy could be to support that priest/parish indirectly so they could start up a TLM. For their parish, and a plan B for the SSPP group. I'm looking ahead in the next few years - How can we preserve the traditional works of +Slattery, throughout the diocese. Before, there were young priests looking at or saying or already saying the TLM - Fr Z created a model of spreading the EF in the Madison diocese, starting the "Tridentine Latin Mass Society of Madison." That may not work here, but through grass roots connections it could spread. There is still momentum for it due to Bishop (emeritus) Slattery. He could help. - Otherwise Tulsa trads all get quarantined at MPB. Correction, traditional Catholicism will get quarantined. Not entirely, but mostly. Should we not try and evangelize/spread it through the diocese? Otherwise, if the TLM would one day end at SSPP, would most go to MPB, considering the history? I may live here until I die, so I'm thinking long term. Pax
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 10, 2017 2:42:50 GMT
Researching the idea of re-starting the Divine Liturgy (Eastern rite of Mass) in the Tulsa Diocese.
Who is game? I believe the old chapel still exists. We just need a Priest and a starter group (5-10 maybe?).
|
|