|
|
Post by Pon de Replay on Oct 11, 2017 1:17:42 GMT
Well, my exasperation with the epistemological dilemma is so thorough that I think I could debate it. But only if someone else genuinely wants to. And with your proviso that it will be slow. I am trying, as always, to focus more on personal things and less on internet stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 11, 2017 1:43:18 GMT
Well, my exasperation with the epistemological dilemma is so thorough that I think I could debate it. But only if someone else genuinely wants to. And with your proviso that it will be slow. I am trying, as always, to focus more on personal things and less on internet stuff. Ditto. Let's do it. I sent you a pm. |
|
|
|
Post by Pon de Replay on Oct 11, 2017 13:29:16 GMT
Let's do it. I sent you a pm.
Thank you, Admin. I have received your PM. Unfortunately, I have changed my mind regarding the subject. Thinking it over, I saw how the epistemological dilemma discussion could possibly get bogged down in a hopeless confusion of minutiae and loopholes. Therefore I think evolution would be my preference for a topic; it would help me to re-acquaint myself with the scientific literature, which would at least be beneficial personally, even if I lose the debate by a mile. So the proposition I would defend would be, "that humans are a species of primate; they are great apes and share a common ancestor with chimpanzees, arrived at by the process of natural selection, and were not created separately and specially by God." Such would be the proposition for me to defend against a creationist opponent (whether of the Old Earth or Young Earth variety). For a theistic evolutionist (that is, a believing Catholic who accepts the theory of evolution, such as QMR), I would defend the proposition "that an acceptance of evolution is incompatible with belief in Christianity."
I am sorry to have switched the topic on a dime. I would still be willing to debate the epistemological dilemma, of course, but it just wouldn't be my first choice. |
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 11, 2017 16:45:22 GMT
Let's do it. I sent you a pm.
Thank you, Admin. I have received your PM. Unfortunately, I have changed my mind regarding the subject. Thinking it over, I saw how the epistemological dilemma discussion could possibly get bogged down in a hopeless confusion of minutiae and loopholes. Therefore I think evolution would be my preference for a topic; it would help me to re-acquaint myself with the scientific literature, which would at least be beneficial personally, even if I lose the debate by a mile. So the proposition I would defend would be, "that humans are a species of primate; they are great apes and share a common ancestor with chimpanzees, arrived at by the process of natural selection, and were not created separately and specially by God." Such would be the proposition for me to defend against a creationist opponent (whether of the Old Earth or Young Earth variety). For a theistic evolutionist (that is, a believing Catholic who accepts the theory of evolution, such would defend the proposition "that an acceptance of evolution is incompatible with belief in Christianity."
I am sorry to have switched the topic on a dime. I would still be willing to debate the epistemological dilemma, of course, but it just wouldn't be my first choice.I would debate your last point, that believing in evolution is incompatible with Christianity. I used to teach biology in a liberal Catholic school and had a method to how I taught about evolution. For me, I don't accept evolution as scientific law the way most biologists do, and reject its philosophical core which seems contrary to natural philosophy, not to mention sound, modern, empirical science. My goal would be to convince you, or those like you reading the debate, to believe in a Christian view of God by arguing against the errors of evolution, without dismissing it completely. Fair enough? In the end, whether or not you believe in evolution, it is still consistent to believe in Christianity. |
|
|
|
Post by Pon de Replay on Oct 11, 2017 23:48:18 GMT
It would be a privilege to debate you, Admin. You being a former biology teacher, I'll almost certainly learn from you. My own scientific knowledge is fairly slender; the extent of it is simply that I enjoy "popular science" books and television shows. From time to time over the past several months I've been watching installments of David Attenborough's magisterial BBC series "Life." He also has a good one called "Rise of the Vertebrates." But while my understanding of evolution is not all-encompassing, I do think I have a pretty good handle on the basics of it. We may disagree on what that entails. I would certainly consider genetics and DNA to be "sound, modern, empirical science," and if you do as well, then we will at least have a good patch of common ground to work from. My goal would be to present the problems and contradictions that convinced me I couldn't accept evolution and be an authentic believing Christian at the same time—the things that led to me to see evolution as threatening the reliability of scripture, the benevolence of God, and one of Catholicism's core doctrines, original sin. If this is acceptable to you, let me know when you'd like to begin, and who makes the first post, and things like that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 12, 2017 2:21:35 GMT
It would be a privilege to debate you, Admin. You being a former biology teacher, I'll almost certainly learn from you. My own scientific knowledge is fairly slender; the extent of it is simply that I enjoy "popular science" books and television shows. From time to time over the past several months I've been watching installments of David Attenborough's magisterial BBC series "Life." He also has a good one called "Rise of the Vertebrates." But while my understanding of evolution is not all-encompassing, I do think I have a pretty good handle on the basics of it. We may disagree on what that entails. I would certainly consider genetics and DNA to be "sound, modern, empirical science," and if you do as well, then we will at least have a good patch of common ground to work from. My goal would be to present the problems and contradictions that convinced me I couldn't accept evolution and be an authentic believing Christian at the same time—the things that led to me to see evolution as threatening the reliability of scripture, the benevolence of God, and one of Catholicism's core doctrines, original sin. If this is acceptable to you, let me know when you'd like to begin, and who makes the first post, and things like that. Handshake. I accept your challenge! Others can join too. Few thoughts: 1. I can debate the science and philosophy of it, but not very deeply, but more on a basic level. 2. Me I'll use the scholastic method. A surgically precise question, a condsensed summary of counter-arguments, then appeal to mutually accepted authority, the my argument, followed by answers to your arguments. 3. The goal will be a) drawing closer to the divine truth, b) generating traffic to the forum, c) showing how an intelligent, civilized debate can take place in a trad forum. 4. It can be a slow thread that may take weeks or months. Think friends playing chess through snail mail. 5. We can use any rhetoric device or line of argument we want, but following forum rules. We must be fair in representing the other person's arguments, if there is lack of clarity, we should ask for clarification. We must try and avoid all fallacious devices of argumentation. |
|
|
|
Post by hopeful on Oct 13, 2017 4:19:41 GMT
Love the drawing Pons! Went to daughters to see her and hubby's baby, most beautiful, hairy baby in the world, if I may say so myself. Pons, no matter what you say, and Admin responds with, I will find it interesting. Non-offensive, because you do not belittle those who disagree with you. You are fair and not so attached to your own ideas that you feel the need to cut down those who disagree. I think the dialogue between you and others will be interesting, and fun to read From time to time I may even chime in, Pons, unless you tell me to butt out...which I highly doubt because you, for the most part are polite and patient.
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 13, 2017 5:58:22 GMT
Love the drawing Pons! Went to daughters to see her and hubby's baby, most beautiful, hairy baby in the world, if I may say so myself. Pons, no matter what you say, and Admin responds with, I will find it interesting. Non-offensive, because you do not belittle those who disagree with you. You are fair and not so attached to your own ideas that you feel the need to cut down those who disagree. I think the dialogue between you and others will be interesting, and fun to read From time to time I may even chime in, Pons, unless you tell me to butt out...which I highly doubt because you, for the most part are polite and patient. Yes Pons is a Class A Gentleman. Currently non-practicing and skeptical of the whole thing, but he knows how to listen, appreciate other people's knowledge and life experience, and isn't focused on his own little self-absorbed bubble. I very much look forward to our debate, and who knows, what if it is so good we put it all into an e-book and sell it on Amazon!  That would be cool. Some of the profit goes to Stinky Homeless Lewis! |
|
|
|
Post by Pon de Replay on Oct 13, 2017 14:26:30 GMT
I'm glad you liked the drawing, hopeful. The Victorian era was a great one for cartooning and illustration. "Darwinian Man, though well-behaved / at best is only a monkey shaved." But I also liked the picture of the wholesome family Admin posted in the debate thread. The mother, father, and daughter all appear to happily anticipate being shown how, yes indeed, evolution is compatible with Christianity, whereas the little boy on the left has an expression that seems to say, "yeah, right! There's no way those two are compatible! LOL!" That kid in the stock photo is probably my only sympathetic audience member, but that's okay.
Admin, thank you for making that introductory post; it frames the discussion nicely. A couple of the things you wrote there will give me an opening to sketch out some of the difficulties I find in reconciling scripture with the evolutionary scheme. Thanks also for your kind words. I might only repeat what I said earlier, that I found you one of the most perceptive and honest posters on SD: always focused on the problem, and scrupulous not to misunderstand anyone. I'm grateful for the proposed slowness of the debate; I may not have time to write my first post until next week.
|
|
|
|
Post by hopeful on Oct 15, 2017 1:11:01 GMT
Pon, I will enjoy reading what transpires here between you and Admin. Won't have anything intelligent to add unless your discussions include babies, homemaking poultry and sheep. ; ) But, I do enjoy a good debate and this seems to have the ingredients for just that!
|
|
matto
New Member
Posts: 3 
|
Post by matto on Nov 6, 2017 20:14:12 GMT
Hi Chris and all. I am late in coming here. I know you invited me a while ago but I haven't joined until now. I am not an okie but I am a tradcat I guess. But I am not a trad cat knight.
|
|
That would be cool. Some of the profit goes to Stinky Homeless Lewis! 